ORAI (Star Wars Open Rebellion Ai)

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MamiyaOtaru
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:50 am
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Postby MamiyaOtaru » Sun May 11, 2008 12:59 am

I'm still trying to figure out how well balanced this is. The more I play, the more I am impressed by how close it is, though I am starting to get a nagging worry about airspeeders. Here's a few replays for those interested. These are all human only.

1: ORAIhumansTrretCheese - RvI - this one is for LOLs. Turret rush! I totally screwed up the first turret, otherwise it would have been done before his first storm trooper. Somehow pulled it off anyway.
2: ORAIhumansStun - IvR - got my stormtrooper stun ability working. Was nice for early game infantry encounters. When he brought in flying units, my lack of at-st range upgrade hurt. Speeders wimp out.
3: ORAIhumansWuthering - RvI - rather horrible airspeeder beatdown. Early econ raids, later tech tree raids while massing xwings.
4: ORAIhumansRvRcrapMicro - RvR - early back and forth as I manage to make sure my forces don't bother defending. I should have ended it , but it became practice for hallucinate, lockdown and proton charge.
5: ORAIhumansAirOnly - RvR - airspeeders can be countered by earlier airspeeders. flawless victory.
6: ORAIhumansAthena - RvRvI - airspeeders rampage more.

I took myself out of the equation and had them play each other. It was closer, but airspeeder harassment prevented I's ground from ever doing anything. (that replay is on one of their machines). So yeah, I worry about speeders a bit. Time for me to switch back to imperials. So, if speeders are mutalisks, what counters them? Stormtroopers? No stimpacks, but firing rate upgrade.. Anyway, don't take a flood of replays as narcissism. Like I want anyone to see my 40 APM :( You can probably skip the replays with the knowledge that airspeeders had their way most of the time (unless I was Imperial, or took them out with my own airspeeders)
proletariat
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:31 am
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Postby proletariat » Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:33 am

hi there,
sorry if this is in the wrong thread/forum, but i was just wondering if there was a no-cd patch that works with ORAI that has been released? i noticed that there are plans to add SFlare NO-cd in the next version, but i could not find any more information about this
thanks in advance
MamiyaOtaru
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:50 am
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Postby MamiyaOtaru » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:39 pm

Background now, meat of changes in next posts.

It's been almost a year since I was here. I showed up looking for a way to make the AI for ORAI easier so scrubs like me could have something to play against. I got some stuff done, but nothing polished. Then I discovered the fun of playing real people. I've barely played the computer since :( Anyway it's like I took a year off to become less terrible at SC. My APM has gone from 40 to 90ish (still terrible, but better). During this time I've played a lot of SC, but a bunch of OR as well, and some balance issues present themselves. I think. I play with some guys locally who are getting better, but still have yet to take a game from me 1v1 in either game :-/ . I should just go onto ICCUP and get stomped, but I sort of don't want to leave my buds farther behind. But keep this disparity in mind as I talk about balance. I've also been hanging out at TeamLiquid, where got me to want to do stuff again. Unfortunately as all the players involved are terrible it's really hard to make conclusions about balance.

Before going further I'd like to express my respect for what Sniped Ash made. I'm not looking to change the feel of the mod at all. Not looking to add Jedi or whatever. Just trying to get something that's playable in multiplayer without relying on mirror matchups. So some background, with copious links to replays you can check out if you are *really* bored.

I started out Empire, and when I won frequent opponent Chris decided to use them. I went around stomping stuff with stormtroopers until I tried Rebel and ran over him with speeders. He then switched to rebel. Bajadulce mentioned to me a long while ago he thought the early airspeeders might be imba. At the time I figured walkers were strong enough to counter them, but since then I've come to loathe air.

As Chris improved, he'd punish me with speeders' ability to be anywhere and kept me bottled up in my main with a line of walkers around everything until I could cover my main and natural at the same time with copious walkers. This led to some horrible slogs of games as I moved from expansion to expansion with a blob of walkers as he picked away with y-wings and such, until I could build up gunboats and chariots and wipe him out. After one in particular I was pretty much done playing that matchup*. While checking out units, I found I'd overlooked hoverscouts, which do a lot more DPS to air than walkers do (even though their explosive damage missiles only do 75% of their max to medium sized speeders). Their longer range made a huge difference. When I deployed them next game the speeders couldn't sneak past my units to my mineral line and were annihilated**. Status Quo restored.

As I was going all scouts, Chris started doing Freerunners and Heavy Trackers. That game I discovered scouts sucked against ground and was in a pretty even game until his game crashed :( ***. Next game I mixed walkers back in, and used air since he wasn't, and won easily enough****.

Fast forward some months and the game still usually unfolds with me in my main until I can get a few hoverscouts to cover both main and natural, and some walkers to guard the front door before expanding and teching to gunboats or chariots, while massing walkers. Not hugely fun, but not terribly imbalanced, at least given my better skill or mindset for winning. Last month we play a FFA with his brother. At least it was supposed to be. One of them broadcasted to everyone his half of the convo about ganging up on me. Not that it mattered. I bulked up on scouts in my main and expanded with walkers before his brother raped my main with a blob of xwings all by himself. Could do nothing#. I played him in a couple follow up games and assuming he'd be teching straight to air I won by pushing with troopers early, winning outright once## and damaging him enough to lead to the gif in that teamliquid thread###. Which brings me to here.

___________________________
* - slog.rep - see first 16 minutes to see what our games had devolved to
** - scouts.rep - why proxy a starport :-/
*** - dropped.rep
**** - bombers.rep
# - xwings.rep
## - push.rep
### - delay.rep
MamiyaOtaru
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:50 am
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Postby MamiyaOtaru » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:46 pm

I think early speeders are imba. Not particularly strong, but the mobility and ability to be anywhere and all concentrated into one small area (the natural stacking doesn't help) makes them hard to beat. So I got to work screwing with the tree. I moved speeders from the factory to the starport, and made xwings require a control tower. Delays speeders a bit, xwings less so, but you can't pump both at once without multiple starports. Switched speeders to use ground armor and weapons while I was at it. So Rebels can build something right away from the factory, I removed the runner's need to have an armory.

Concerns: Runner is expensive. Who's going to make those instead of going straight to starport and making much cheaper speeders? Should runners' price be bumped down to be a little closer to walkers, and speeders price bumped up to be closer to TIEs? Not sure, more in a bit.

I had a couple scrubs play a match with *. Empire was at a disadvantage the whole time. It seemed like they didn't get air nearly fast enough themselves. In fact, even with rebel air now delayed, the first imperial fighter comes out later in the tech tree than speeders. And they suck. Cost more in minerals (and gas) for less hitpoints, less DPS, more succeptibility to explosive damage, basically a crap deal.

For the I switched up the imperial tree a little. Instead of needing stargate and fleet beacon (TIE launch bay) to get TIE Fighters, you can build them as soon as you get a stargate. I renamed the TIE Launch Bay to Bomber Hangar. Currently, after stargate you can get robo support bay (warhead depot) which allows you to build gunboats, and allows the Bomber Hangar to get TIE Bombers. I moved Ion surge (stimpack), a TIE ability from Bomber Hangar to Warhead Depot. I also moved air weapons and armor to the Warhead Depot. Bomb Damage upgrade went from Warhead Depot to Bomber Hangar. This basically allows TIEs a little earlier, at about the same tech level as airspeeders. I also like the new location for air upgrades. Having them in the Analysis Bureau always seemed weird. To counteract TIEs sucking a little, I changed Ion Surge to not take away any health. Other possibilities would be taking less health, giving TIEs slow regeneration, or some combo. But without editing their stats any they suck so bad free stimpack usage doesn't seem too bad.

So I had the scrubs play a game with the new exe**. Never again D: D: . Worst thing I ever observed. But more or less even. I followed it up with a game against Chris in our usual matchup. Pushed straigt in with stormtroopers, gg***. In the rematch, did the same but threw in stun. At his natural I backed off to let things continue. Hit his mineral line with TIEs and backed off again. Eventually just ended it****. To make sure things hadn't swung to far the other direction we traded sides. His troopers took out my pathfinders but my ramp held. Moved to freerunners and set up a contain, while building up a blob of xwings. Contain held until I had 30 Xwings which I blobbed him with, gg*****.

________________
watch with rebalanceORAIFG.exe
* - disadvantage.rep - scrubs

watch with rebalance2ORAIFG.exe
** - boring.rep
*** - troopers.rep
**** - stun.rep - broken, but can still see where stun worked
***** - blob.rep - probably also broken. intermediate version of the exe I guess.
MamiyaOtaru
Posts: 32
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:50 am
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Postby MamiyaOtaru » Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:46 pm

My concerns with these changes: every change I make seems to make this more of a mirror match. We already miss the asymetry of ranged vs melee and many weak vs few strong of 'lots vs marines vs 'lings. Now Both sides are getting air around the same time. Is there still variety enough? Room for timing windows? Also, I'm not sure I changed the right stuff. Stormtroopers pwn pathfinders. Especially once you get stun (maelstrom) and later adrenal glands. Was the threat of early rebel air needed to keep empire in their base instead of trooper pushing? Would it even matter? As Empire could I have won every time with the original exe by using stormtroopers early? Which is to say are rebels too weak early (originally, and moreso now)?

And even if airspeeders have been nerfed a little by being delayed, have I removed the threat of xwing blobs in lategame? A flock of them still seems hard to stop, barring some nice plague, EMP, and bunches of gunboats. Can one prevent them from building up with pressure?

Before I thought early game was even enough, with rebels having a serious advantage at midgame, to say nothing of late. I don't think things could be left as they were: if he wants to expand early at all, empire has no choice but to trooper push to weaken or kill rebels before speeders get out. Otherwise it's camp your main until you can cover two bases with scouts, but then the econ is behind enough you'll get xwing blobbed. So it's rush or nothing. I think it's better now. But now I worry about rebel weakness early, and imperial weakness late while the midgame seems ok. This is better, but not ideal. And we all suck, so it's really hard to know. And we can't play enough games.

Please help me theorycraft this, or let me know if you want to play some ORAI. You can play with us scrubs, or against better players, or whatever.
Jonstone
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:45 am
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Postby Jonstone » Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:35 pm

Airspeeders look to be a real pain in those replays. I think airspeeders should be the low level air unit from the starport thing instead of X-wing fighters. X-wing would be 2nd and greyed out until more tech. Another new unit could replace airspeeders for the factory unit. :D Maybe something that hovers above ground like the imperial bike. I don't know what.

Here is a link to a bunch of Starwars ships.
Symmetry
Posts: 78
Joined: Mon May 07, 2007 10:57 am
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Postby Symmetry » Tue Jul 14, 2009 11:05 am

[quote name='bajadulce' post='7044' date='Jul 13 2009, 10:28 PM']I'd like to update it to 1.16.1 and possibly do some more updates as this mod is just so cool.[/quote]

Indeed it is! An update to this mod to 1.16.1 would be a fantastic way to make it more accessible to people (as would be removing any sort of installer or whatnot!).

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