Entropy II - Worship the fog!

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Postby IskatuMesk » Thu Sep 11, 2008 1:01 pm

Drops and stuff are all completely hardcoded and you can't change that behavior at all.
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Postby Archon_Wing » Thu Sep 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Without the micro, I agree, the computer just does awful with a pure metal force and that type of army should be avoided by the cpu.

Metal would be ok if the ai could reach a certain critical mass. Though I am not sure of a the effectiveness or fun of a script that turtles with a main and a natural til 150 supply and moves out. And antiair becomes an issue. I would strongly recomend to script writers about ghosts and science vessels; if they original AI did anything right, it was with them. Most people don't and shoudn't build ghosts because they are impractical to micro in a large scale situation, but the ai has no qualms with this. Another thing to consider is the dark templar, so a comsat is needed pretty early.

The ai currently doesn't do anything if it detects an island map. That will change for BWAI Gold's version.

How about maps like lost temple, where it's mainly a land map but with islands? And those cliffs.

The protoss and zerg blocks are clearly molded after his 3.0 insane Ai. IF the computer manages to gain a decent economy, then you are in for a pleasant surprise indeed.

Yea, turtling tends to be not so great against them on most standard maps since they'll eat all the minerals like crazy. If they had more use of mass end game tools like carriers, arbiters, defilers, and ultras then you'd starve to death trying to turtle unless you mass abuse the hardcoded stuff. ;p

I consider myself a pretty experienced player in multiplayer (doesn't mean I'm good!), and I can easily take 1 of these things. However, 2 of them proves to be pretty difficult since they seem to like countering your base after you attack 1 of them so sometimes I will lose to a 1v2. Once again, this is assuming no lame tricks like walling off to abuse ai pathing or worker lure cheese (what's the point?). Hopefully, if you guys develop that fusion project it'd shut those people up that are always like "LOZL IT FALLS TO MY GOSU PROBE HARASS" (while losing their probe anyways) and having 2000 minerals in the bank during this time. Gosu, indeed. Now, take your crappy macro and play agianst someone who beat the ai in a straight out fight. ;)

What's funny is that my friends do it if they are pissed at the AI, even though I tell them it defeats the point of playing it. But I suppose they still have trouble defeating it lol. And sometimes people need punching bags.
Overall, the non-cheating AI project has always impressed me, since it's very challenging to write such a script. Plus, cheating AIs tend to give a wierd UMS-like vibe by changing the mechanics of the game significantly.
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Postby Archon_Wing » Fri Sep 12, 2008 7:58 pm

Unless cliffs have resources, the Ai pretty much never goes there.

That would be fine as long as they try to expand there.

I don't know what's more challenging. Writing a non-cheating script or writing a cheating script that doesn't go too overboard and produce that weird ums-like feel.

In either case, one should have a good idea of how your typical game tends to pan out. Some knowledge of strategy is required. Indeed, the default AI sucks because the makers didn't really know how people would play (how could they?) The best we can do given the limitations is a ai that would trounce beginners and perhaps rookies since those games are heavily decided by macro/economy.

Oh yea. Sometimes the comp will attack different locations and thus split up their forces. Is this hardcoded as well?

Entropy II can be played on Bnet too, just in case you missed that.

Yea, though I prefer hamachi due to the lan latency and not worry about names being taken. =p

I'll upload a random game or two soon to mess around with the calculator.
Edit: I don't see any option for file attachments
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=ZR9VUK0H - 1538 score
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1X31MBUN - 838 score
Yea, not too hot as zerg.

Ok, upload function works now. Last replay seems to be broken though. :/
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Postby Archon_Wing » Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:43 pm

The new version will be slightly different than the previous ones in that the individual scripts will be simplified to use common multirun scripts such as upgrades and expansions. No single script will be longer than it needs to be and all non-cheating scripts found on this site will be part of this mod even if only in "partial" form.

Uh-oh. :lol:

When you compiled Entropy II, did you just grab the decompiled copies from their aiscript.bin ? A number of scripts are hard to edit because I have no idea where their original copies are and thus have those PMCX 0000 labels. I'm willing to submit scripts I "fixed" for crashes in Entropy Prime, but they are quite unreadable. Considering the terran txt file I have for Entropy Prime is over 9000 lines (and 1/2 is mine and Ashara), it will be a bit hard.

Another thing to note is that my zerg script (and entropy prime) is much longer than it needs to be because it has the Blizzard zerg island scripts tacked on. I have no idea how the blizz scripts run, and had to leave the whole thing in. If someone could make a really short island Z script, that'd be nice. The other thing is that nobody cares about islands, especially if zerg is involved. :lol:
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Postby Archon_Wing » Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:53 am

If I remember correctly, the CounterZerg script was the only script I couldn't locate in its raw form as well as Ahzz for RRebles. I also remember reworking CounterZerg's compiled flowchart axing a lot of unused blocks. I'm sure the file is still around one of my folders if not part of BWAIWar4.

If you could provide scripts with the labels, that'd be really nice. I've been trying to edit it via the decompiled ones from Entropy II and that was kinda hard to read. ;0

As for Island scripts, a reduced form of Blizzard's or others could be implemented if there was enough interest. Flow charting compiled scripts is a little time consuming, but as with anything, just chew off little chunks at a time. Aofst had started an island Terran script, but never completed it. Definitely Terran and Toss could be improved by us. Entropy once sent me a 5 minute Terran Drop made by a Korean a few years ago. The drop included a full dropship of rines, meds, fbats. I think it could be done quicker tho. A drop like this could be something like a 4pool rush; happening only once in a while to add some spice. So an island script might be fun for scripters to construct. Racine's 3.0 Zerg Island script is pretty good, but obviously that is a cheating one. I remember the joy of beating it after a dozen or so failed attempts! So Island AI can be fun to play against.

After reading your earlier post today, I tried reworking my t/p island scripts. They were pretty much incredibly broken since I had neglected them for months. :lol: Included are also AIvsAI reps on the map Parallel Lines. It's actually more of a semi-island, but pure island maps kinda suck anyways.

EDIT: Island scripts can be found in the main unleaded thread:
Island Reps on Parallel Lines can be downloaded here

The problem with my island scripts is that they take forever to attack and like to run transports into massive defenses, so any type of early offense sucked. I sorta copied Blizz's way of added a random early drop. The terran in this exe is rigged to always use early vulture drop against the poor Blizzard Zerg here. It will be a random branch. I also have no idea why a bunker is built so early; will have to deal with that.

The Protoss is just edited directly from Blizzard to include more carriers and arbiters lol. I remember Peppe's script also has an island branch, but it is almost the same as the one I have (It was probaly also edited Blizzard) As with the original AI, the script will sometimes go for a fast zealot drop, but it doesn't seem nearly as good as the vult one.

Zerg, I'll have to leave to someone else. I'm not good with Zerg AI, much less on islands.

This would be great. Did you take any notes so as to the problems in their raw form?

Hmm, it should be noted in Entropy Prime. Though I will admit to tearing out anything that looked suspicious.

Strangely enough, when I made Peppe's script have an end loop (The original script just stops) it stopped crashing. That's really weird. I just added a blank loop to the end...

I'm also pretty confident invalid use of defenseuse and defensebuild to noncombat units caused problems too, so I nuked many of them in all the scripts. Basically I just took note of PYAI's warnings. I never found out why Racine's scripts crashed though; I remember them being responsible for a few in BWAIwar 3

My own scripts stopped crashing after creating a fresh new aiscript.bin. Don't ask me why. :o

And whatever happened to Xerxes btw?


The scripts can branch out to the various individuals, but should follow a more generic structure. The old method of allowing each script in its full form is problematic in that some aren't that well written (logic/flow wise) and are known to lockup, crash, or just go idle. I guess the first step would be to assess all the scripts and see what kind of structure would best fit. Definitely each of the scripts could benefit from more generic openings. Openings that are more direct but allow for conditional checks to jump to individual scripts that meet that condition. But this may be too much work as well as might just rob the scripts of their individual personality.

Sorta hard as we have to scrutunize like every script lol. Which is why I'd appreciate it to anyone who's willing to flowchart any script.

Depends on race too.

Cheese builds don't have to be script specific; they can just be part of the generic opening as a random jump. Cheese is by default generic.

But for terran, it must branch off after 12 scvs because this is when we divide mech from a bio build.

Protoss has to branch off even sooner because of fast expand and fast rush builds. Unless we get a tab on which scripts have a fast expand branch. :lol:

Zerg easily benefits most from this, though as we can go up to 12 hatch 11 pool, and adapt to rush.

Things that could be made universal into the generic opening:
Rush defense blocks
Workers (T and P)
Defenseuse commands (can be all multirunned as needed), but not defensebuild
More buildings when resources allow (could cause slowdown)
Defensive loops like anti-dt ones
Very generic upgrades like ultralisk armor and such; there's really no reason to have any variation in these. But say ebay upgrades, could have diffrent orders. (If they want 1 or 2 ebays, for example)
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Postby yggdrasil » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:42 pm

I'm a bit confused by the 2 threads. Which is the real Entropy III? Are there any plans for an Entropy IV? :o
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Postby Archon_Wing » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:10 pm

What the?? Oh this is actually the Entropy 2 thread but Baja had merged part of the E3 thread with this in anticipation of BWAI launcher. According to the front post, the Entropy III beta file was used as a placeholder til BWAI launcher came up. I obviously updated this just now to the actual BWAI launcher link.

The other Entropy 3 thread is newer and was supposed to be the "development thread". This happened because "BWAI" was a separate forum, and this thread was largely hidden. This one kinda just fell off to the wayside; it probably should be closed

Please use the other thread for Entropy 3 bugs and testing and stuff. For this thread I have redirected the download to BWAIlauncher and posted the following:
BWAI Launcher has superceded all previous files, and is the final incarnation of the BWAI project. It contains all scripts made on this site in a single package. Please read this thread for details

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