Ashara AIs

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ashara
Posts: 170
Joined: Wed Feb 06, 2008 11:12 pm

Postby ashara » Mon Mar 24, 2008 9:49 am

Thanks for trying the AI's, posting these nice replays and giving feedback.

Ashara_Zelduck AI
I concentrate my defense on that ramp and once that defense is set, many games are decided, because the AI just sends his troops into certain death, not realizing that it's futile

That's a race feature : mighty zealots are not afraid to fight a ramp blocked by 4 lurkers and 6 sunkens without observers ;)

Did you ever play around with shuttledrops in mid-/late-game? In the replay a single drop would have been devastating.

Since this was an AI vs AI script, I didn't bother to put shuttles in it (with cheating AI the check_transport command slowed the game, don't know why). But that's definitely a good idea. I will add it in my VsHuman AI, I need to check how blizzard make it working - the first drops on non-ground maps are well done, after it's often less coordinated.

Corsairs seem to only distrupt units or buildings that shoot at them. Sometimes they fly next to their dying ground units and could easily change the outcome of the battle with their distruptor webs, but they just don't do anything unless I shoot at them.
Isn't there a way to change that or is it another hardcoded fault? (Or maybe they need to be in the same attack-/defense-group, like the unit that gets attacked?)

I don't know about that one, the fact is that nearly all my attacks are made with a send_suicide command for timing reasons - the attack_add command can make proper fighting groups but it's often working slower -, this might be the problem, will do some testing about it when I will have the time.

I will need to check observers too, only one was made and it was at 22'00.


AsharaHAI
You can try other match-ups too, all the scripts are mine and there are my first Terran scripts.

No clue why zerg build his pool in front of the minerals, but his timing was insane! Nice job.

This is an environmental feature : the overmind wants to protect mineral patches from over-exploitation by drones :P
More seriously, it's probably something wrong with creep command, don't know how this one works so I just put creep 3 for all the zerg script.

And then Protoss caught me off-guard with his Dark Templars. I was almost done for, but could micro my ass out of that situation. :D

Really nice hydra micro, this lone lurker killed all my hopes for an AI victory :)

But you should really have a few additional dragoons against zerg to keep my overlords from seeing that build order. ;)

Maybe one dragoon, but you will probably be able to see the build and save your overlord even with that.
IskatuMesk
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 5:57 pm

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:02 am

Changing how the AI handles spells and stuff is completely impossible. Telling them what units to attack when and how and so on is also pretty impossible. Basically, scripters are limited to build orders and telling the AI what to attack with and stuff like that. Don't expect the protoss to morph into bisu or stork or something. :P

The AI definitely cannot drop reavers. The odd time it does ferry reavers, seems to have to do with attack_prepare, but for the most part unless you expect the AI to need shuttles for stuff like expanding it's probably better off not getting them. (My AI always uses check_transports because they are built to work on any size of map under any condition).

Imagine SC2 having a worse AI than BW!


Wc3 had a way worse AI than BW, so sc2's AI being even worse isn't too unlikely.
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Abaddon
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Postby Abaddon » Mon Mar 24, 2008 4:58 pm

[quote name='bajadulce' post='3244' date='Mar 23 2008, 08:31 PM']Alright we need to play some team melee games vs. some of these non-cheating Ai's.[/quote]

Hell yeah, count me in. Just say when and where. :)

[quote name='ashara' post='3253' date='Mar 24 2008, 01:49 AM']That's a race feature : mighty zealots are not afraid to fight a ramp blocked by 4 lurkers and 6 sunkens without observers ;)[/quote]

Haha, but I don't think it's a race feature that those mighty zealots screw up their pathfinding, if I block the ramp. They run left and right without attacking, while my hydras sit in the backrow and spit nifty on their confused little heads. ;)
But joke aside: I was thinking about how you could prevent this in a vshuman-script. I'm not sure, if other units (ranged units like dragoons for example) show the same behavior in this kind of situation.

I need to check how blizzard make it working - the first drops on non-ground maps are well done, after it's often less coordinated.

I read in the AI-Development thread something about that clear_combatdata command. Maybe that recoordinates shuttle drops too?

AsharaHAI
You can try other match-ups too, all the scripts are mine and there are my first Terran scripts.

I definitly will. It was 3 or 4 am around here so I just wanted to make a quick game and go to sleep. :)

This is an environmental feature : the overmind wants to protect mineral patches from over-exploitation by drones :P
More seriously, it's probably something wrong with creep command, don't know how this one works so I just put creep 3 for all the zerg script.

Oh yes, the Overmind was always a nice pal. I liked him and his Exodus-plans. :D
Right, he was a very environmental loving geezer. Assimilating every other race to enhance their DNA. How could anybody dislike that? Protoss should have surrendered happily for they would have been part of his glorious plan.
Ah, that's another feature I like about Starcraft. Fanatic talk about your favourite race! Even though I somehow dislike Kerrigan, a tear went down my cheek, when I heard her distorted voice in this new cinematic: "We... are the SWARM!". hach... lovely... :)
ANYway (hehe), that creep command looks interesting. Looking at the muta-aivsai-replay, it could be the number of times he tries to expand his creep per base. Just a wild guess...
Maybe you could set it ridiculously high for a test and look what happens.

Really nice hydra micro, this lone lurker killed all my hopes for an AI victory :)

I was bathed in sweat at that point. :D

Maybe one dragoon, but you will probably be able to see the build and save your overlord even with that.

Give it a try and we'll see.
My normal behavior, when I see air-attacking units like marines or dragoons is to get away with that overlord to a location he can't reach with ground units and where I'm still able to scout a bit. On hunters it's behind those rivers for example and on Temple its the edge of a cliff. Loosing the scouting overlord is really a pain in the ass.
Trust me.
Even though, next time I see a dragoon I know it'll be alone, but I'll play it as if you didn't tell me that and behave like I normally would. ;)

And btw. I have to thank YOU for making cool new no- AIs. Those will always be my favourite.

[quote name='IskatuMesk' post='3255' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:02 AM']Changing how the AI handles spells and stuff is completely impossible. Telling them what units to attack when and how and so on is also pretty impossible. Basically, scripters are limited to build orders and telling the AI what to attack with and stuff like that. Don't expect the protoss to morph into bisu or stork or something. :P[/quote]
Yep, already got that. (too bad btw. fighting against a bisu-comp with several friends would be hilarious for AGES to come.)
But I overheard you guys talking about "addgroup"-something and I thought:
Maybe if they were in the same attack/defense-group... ;)

The AI definitely cannot drop reavers. The odd time it does ferry reavers, seems to have to do with attack_prepare, but for the most part unless you expect the AI to need shuttles for stuff like expanding it's probably better off not getting them. (My AI always uses check_transports because they are built to work on any size of map under any condition).

Like I said. Those shuttles may be a good idea to get around a main defense like a ramp. I experienced some very devastating drops from overlords against some AI (forgot which one it was).
But it doesn't have to be reavers. 3 shuttles full with zealots or DTs could be a nightmare too.
And about reavers in general: I remember a game with a friend against racine. He had tons of reavers in his base and at some point it was impossible to get inside with ground units and even my air units just weren't strong enough to crack them, because of some dragoons and cannons. The ai handles them lame, but they can still be frightening.
Especially for hordes of zerglings.

Wc3 had a way worse AI than BW, so sc2's AI being even worse isn't too unlikely.

I didn't play Wc3 enough, because I disliked the priority of that skill-system. But from the games I played I can't recall any exploits that defeated him easily (but I bet there are). In BW it was clear after a few games that he would always take the same route and that you just had to defend most of the time at one place with enough defense structures (not to mention unfinished terran buildings and workers that chase you like stupid fanatics).
I really, really hope you're wrong and that we'll all be surprised by the new ai. Or that they'll at least give more possibilities for dudes like you to enhance it.

Edit:
Jeez, now this one is even bigger than the last one.
Sorry! :D
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ashara
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Postby ashara » Mon Mar 24, 2008 5:31 pm

I'm not sure, if other units (ranged units like dragoons for example) show the same behavior in this kind of situation.

Yes, except that if they got vision of enemy units above the ramp, they will fire at them.
Walling is very effective against AI's, and except air or drops I can't see a way to go around it.

I have read somewhere some explanations about creep command, as far as I know, it was either "creep 4" or "creep 3", other values where similar to creep 4. If I remember correctly, it has to do with maximizing creep surface or no. This is interesting for clustering sunken colonies.


About corsair disruption web, there may be a difference between send_suicide or attack_prepare, attack_do commands.
For example, sometimes two armies cross without fighting and other times they fight. (I don't know if this has something to do with attack commands though)


I don't use reavers anymore in my scripts the AI handles them too badly for attacks. Maybe in defense, but since most of my attacks are done with send_suicide command, they will follow other units and left their defensive positions. :P
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Abaddon
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Postby Abaddon » Mon Mar 24, 2008 7:29 pm

This is what the Protoss AI gets for no detection! ;)
But it was damn close again. Even though I knew that he would go for DTs... And I already thought: "Hmm... send an overlord? No, sunken will be complete soon enough."
I was terribly wrong and he almost got me, if it wasn't for my zergling harassment. :D
And DAMN those spider-mines!!
IskatuMesk
Posts: 329
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 5:57 pm

Postby IskatuMesk » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:32 pm

I didn't play Wc3 enough, because I disliked the priority of that skill-system. But from the games I played I can't recall any exploits that defeated him easily (but I bet there are). In BW it was clear after a few games that he would always take the same route and that you just had to defend most of the time at one place with enough defense structures (not to mention unfinished terran buildings and workers that chase you like stupid fanatics).
I really, really hope you're wrong and that we'll all be surprised by the new ai. Or that they'll at least give more possibilities for dudes like you to enhance it.


Actually, SC's AI uses different routes depending on the map and location of the target + use of the "clear_combatdata" command which resets their target. In wc3 there was so many problems and issues with the AI (How about shooting one tower and running ALL the way back a 256x256 map to their base, then creeping a bit, then repeating? Over and over? While lagging a X2 6000 CPU (that's a dual 3.0ghz dual core))

I would have killed to have BW's AI in wc3. You could do more with it and as an AI it presented far more of a challenge and a better foundation to mod with, while wc3's AI inherited supreme weaknesses and inefficiencies that could not be made up for in sheer macro capacity like BW.

Judging by the SC2 AI seen at both the first WWI at korea and then blizzcon, it may seem that they are either using the BW AI as a base or starting fresh. I hope that no matter how shitty they make the AI, they softcode it (unlike wc3 which was again all hardcode). Blizzard refuses to acknowledge modders in any questions or responses so no matter how hard I tried I never got even satisfaction of Karune saying he even read my posts despite bumping them in his forums for months.
Bhodi
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Postby Bhodi » Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:58 pm

haha.. I watched that replay by Abaddon. Nice playing. The ai looked good too even tho it lost. Too bad SCAI has such a hard time with cloaked units. The ai had good cash flow & spending. What can be done to help counter cloaked units by the Ai? faster obs? More scanners? Would the Terran Ai help the protoss Ai with scanners or does the terran ai have to be under attack to cause it to scan?
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ashara
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Postby ashara » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:05 pm

Thanks, another replay to see :)
Even though I knew that he would go for DTs...

You got lucky on this one, because AI has 2 builds per race, the other one is zealot rush :P, each build as the same chance to be used.
I may make like in the AI Vs AI : select the build depending on opponent build. Meaning a fast expand will be countered by a quick rush.

This is what the Protoss AI gets for no detection!

These lurkers are quite scary when used by a human player.
You reached the end of the scripted part of both scripts, it's quite short for now. Rushing scripts are even shorter, will add observers later.
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Abaddon
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Postby Abaddon » Mon Mar 24, 2008 11:32 pm

[quote name='IskatuMesk' post='3266' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:32 PM']Actually, SC's AI uses different routes depending on the map and location of the target + use of the "clear_combatdata" command which resets their target.[/quote]
I mean, that they always seem to take the shortest route.
Take Gaja for example. There are two ways to get to the first expansion. One over a bridge and another over the hillside. He ALWAYS comes over the bridge. I really don't bother anymore to defend the hillside unless he gets the minerals up there. But indirect tactics are important to make a human opponent guess.
That's why I'm all for shuttle-testing. It's just a hunch, but I think in combination with that clear_combatdata it could be effective later in the game. Because by then he sometimes has several expansions in different directions. Which means, that the drops could come from many different sides. At least, that's what I'm estimating. Combine that with some Corsairs that grab the attention of my spores away from the shuttles and you know what I have in mind. May work. Like I said, it's just a hunch.

And I really think you guys are close to make an unpredictable and effective ai. If you finish that contest and add the most effective no-ais into one script (maybe tweak them a bit for human "needs"), I'm sure it will be wicked.
I mean, Asharas DT rush is predictable right now, because P does only seem to have two possible buildorders, but with an additional bunch of alternatives... jeez... it's frightening just to think about it.

Can't say anything about the WC3 issue. But sounds really embarrassing for Blizzard.

Judging by the SC2 AI seen at both the first WWI at korea and then blizzcon

Did I miss that one? Haven't seen the ai in action yet as far as I know.

Blizzard refuses to acknowledge modders in any questions or responses so no matter how hard I tried I never got even satisfaction of Karune saying he even read my posts despite bumping them in his forums for months.

I wasn't involved in modding before. Well, or lets say: not much. I witnessed the creation of Camelot Systems (you will most likely remember them) and how they suddenly vanished. Then there were some gossips that blizzard invited them and they talked and they give the source-code blabla and stuff like that, but I didn't follow the whole issue.
But from what I hear now, it sounds really strange. I don't get them. If I was in the marketing staff and someone from the crew would ask me: "Should we make it mod-friendly?" I'd say: "WTF?! Are you kidding me? That's what creates a bigger community around a game! Ever heard of Counterstrike, dummy? And there are still people playing Quake 3 because of the modding community! OF COURSE, DAMMIT! Do it!" [raises his whip]
But hey, I read that the dragoon model was put in the editor and I bet we find some reavers and other old models too. That leads me to the conclusion, that they want modders to get at it and make a Broodwar-Mod for SC2. Would be reasonable, because there are most likely plenty of people who don't like the new units. They would catch those SC2-deniers too that way.
Just a possibility.
I'm a dreamer. :)

[quote name='ashara' post='3270' date='Mar 24 2008, 03:05 PM']You got lucky on this one, because AI has 2 builds per race, the other one is zealot rush :P, each build as the same chance to be used.[/quote]
Nope, I scouted again and saw his Cybernetics Core. ;)

These lurkers are quite scary when used by a human player.

Oooh yes, I love them. :)

You reached the end of the scripted part of both scripts, it's quite short for now. Rushing scripts are even shorter, will add observers later.

Allrighty, keep going! :D

[quote name='Bhodi' post='3269' date='Mar 24 2008, 02:58 PM']haha.. I watched that replay by Abaddon. Nice playing. The ai looked good too even tho it lost. Too bad SCAI has such a hard time with cloaked units. The ai had good cash flow & spending. What can be done to help counter cloaked units by the Ai? faster obs? More scanners? Would the Terran Ai help the protoss Ai with scanners or does the terran ai have to be under attack to cause it to scan?[/quote]

Hehe, thanks.
And yeh, the AI is evil, I can already recommend it, even if it's unfinished. Those were very close games I had so far.
The terran AI doesn't help his allies with scanners btw. because like you said, they need to be attacked by a cloaked unit.
The only possibilities I see are cannons or observers.

___
Woooaaah... I'm making another long-post record. Damnit! :D

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