The PvT project

[Taranok]

hahahaha oh my god you really did break the game, just watched a game vs Accel T, and it makes carriers like they're totally broken!

MYK STOP MAKING EVERY UNIT BROKEN, JEEZ, what's next???

More serious note:
I guess your script doesn't really care about getting support for carriers, just full out rushing for carriers and not stopping. and your script is like 1234 times simpler than mine, too.

I wonder how a terran AI is supposed to stop this? BC rush?? Wraiths are pretty awful in attacks, maybe they can just be held back for defense? I don't know how viable something like Goliath + Marine will be, especially since its hard to mass units out of both Barracks and Factories.

It would've been cool if most of the community had been around for longer, seeing as there are more and potentially better strategies that can be used, we might've been able to see much more adaptive AIs in terms of planning or unit composition, instead of simply, "wow, he doesn't have a gateway at this time, so I'll just rush him and I'll win".

Time to metagame! (I might try to make a T AI to counter this kind of script)

Maybe if you allow it can I change the topic name and put both scripts up on the first post?

[Myk]

As far as how to beat it, I can only guess: ghosts. Infantry isn't outdated, it just needs a tech boost, and ghosts can get them there. Lots of scripts get more and more factories, but I'm wondering how ghosts+lockdown do versus simply getting more tank production out.

You can do whatever you want with the script!

Edit:
Ghosts are meh. They show up so late. And then they're super flimsy, so they can die really fast and their damage is pretty weak...
Cloaked Wraith are better. If you make 6-12 Wraith but never attack with them, just have them defend, then you can keep the carriers mostly dead.

What I'm thinking of next is like a 2 rax expand, and then get 4 factories for range upgraded goliaths and tanks.
Or BC 'rush'. BCs build damn slow, too.

I'll add in an observer check for cloaked units tomorrow. Sleepy.

[Taranok]

2 rax expand? Is it not possible to defend a 2 gate with 1 rax?

Goliath + Tank? I guess when I initially though about it it was against more standard compositions, but maybe it'll be viable? I guess testing will have to be done. Goliaths actually manage to do some damage against Zealots: in an 8vs8 battle, 3 zealots are left (tested without upgrades).

Can you share your cloaked wraith script?

[Myk]

It doesn't just get wraith and then win, but it can wear down Protoss and take enough bases that it can overcome the carriers. It would only take a few observers and I can't see the wraith lasting too long.

I think you can defend a 2 gate with a 1 rax. I'm not sure how safe it is to expand with it, though. The better part of the 2 rax is that you can use it pretty aggressively while the other you're kind of stuck playing passive for a while. A lot of 2/3 rax scripts get some good wins against Protoss. There might be a timing there that isn't being exploited.

Sometimes timing is just as important as having some sort of tech counter. Watch the carrier rush script against Ashara T on the old PvT Python replay. No brilliant tech, just a perfect timing to slip by the cannons. I think Racine does this with vultures in one of the reps too.

[Taranok]

2 Rax is almost absurdly effective against expanding Protoss. I think Accel T could probably get an even earlier attack time by delaying gas, it gets gas a bit too early.

Does adding observers really work? In my experience they seem to run into anti-air defenses ahead of the army and then die.

Yeah, I've also noticed on Python that units can just slip past the natural into the main :X Kind of frustrating.

I'm currently working on the 1rax Expand, although zealots so overpowered Is there anyway to force units into bunkers? enter_bunkers() doesn't work, and defenseuse_gg can take a while to work.

EDIT: sorry if i'm not as active with modding right now, school is starting and I just got a HotS beta key!

[Taranok]

Say gg! lol

Made a rudimentary script that was able to beat your carrier script quite easily. Not a big surprise since it does a super greedy triple expand after detecting lack of gateway. It goes for tank goliath, but WITHOUT siege mode. I was initally going to add it but if the opposing AI were to have zealots, sieged tanks would probably do more bad than good with its splash damage. I still need to add expansion loops, upgrades, factories.

it makes me wonder how a proper tank goliath build would do against the standard PvT unit compositions. Goliaths almost hold against zealots, however it seems like when the goliaths are attacked by a zealot army, they kind of get confused and stop asking.

Updates:
Siegeless tanks are not terrific in attacks when units like zealots exist, they sometimes just wander around(?).
Goliaths are also wander when there is an air unit, as it seems to put high priority on them and tries to target them down.

[Myk]

Cool. When all else fails, just get more units than the other guy. I dug up my old 4-6 rax TvZ script and added in the carrier jump and it got a win too. Cheese beats cheese? I've grown way too many cheese scripts instead of ones actually designed to play a solid game of BW.

I wish Terran had more options in TvP. Without the idea of a 'mech push', the AI kind of sends entire metal armies down the tubes for little gain. Hopefully Heinermann's work on his script emulator opens some new doors there. Sometimes, just having proper macro would be great too.

[Taranok]

I'm just wondering, do you know what the Template Terran is? I was looking at some old forums, and I see it referenced quite a bit.

TvP options are probably:
marine+tanks+medic (add ghosts or science vessels)
tank+goliath+vulture
one of those into mass air(?)

It's actually quite interesting that in small battles, zealots>vultures (with even army worth), but in larger battles (I tested 12 vultures vs 9 zealots), the vultures win quite easily, even with zealot speed. I think one of the main problems with mech is that support units quickly die, and then tanks can easily get wiped up by zealots or something.

The only way to afford throwing so many units away is to be ahead of your opponent in economy, which is not impossible, considering mech is built for being turtly. My anti-carrier AI went for double expand after detecting an expand build, however I doubt that's very viable once some counter build detects it.

I finally made my normal TaranokAI a formidable PvT opponent. :p

[krasi0]

Is v0.2 the latest one?

[Taranok]

At the moment it is. To be honest, you probably don't need to spend time running it against your AI because the time that I ran it my AI just seemed to freeze and not do anything.

I'll update it once I'm confident with my other Protoss AI, (taranokAI).